Last week I had the opportunity to interview Jamiu Busari, a leading figure of the healthcare education scene today, and a keynote speaker at AMEE.
In this interview, we discussed Jamiu’s career, achievements and some insights on the upcoming keynote talk at AMEE. Jamiu shared insights on the evolution of medical practice, the impact of AI, and the importance of maintaining humanity in communication. He also discussed the challenges faced by individuals entering the medical field and the significance of cultural context in healthcare.
Find the whole interview and transcript linked below.
TRANSCRIPT
Michaella Masters
I’ve seen you participate in many different prestigious organisations. Some as an associate professor, I believe, of Maastricht University, a former executive member of NVMO, an honorary fellow of the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada, and many more, I’m sure. So my first question would be, what would you say your overarching mission and goals are with your activities and daily practice?
JO Busari
So I’ve been asked so many questions, but this is, let me say this is the toughest one. The toughest one in a sense, like a comprehensive. A question that requires a comprehensive answer. My overall mission is, simply put, making a difference, a reflection. Having participated and achieved all the accolades academically and professionally, these have been the results of me trying to achieve or prove something, because for me to get through, I needed to prove that I was going enough. And essentially, when I describe myself, I see my professional and academic career through three pillars. One is as a scholar, researcher, scientist, and the other is like a clinician, which is also what I trained to be. And then the third is as a healthcare leader, leadership. So those three things sort of exemplify who I am. And then what you’ll then see is that depending on which area of focus, if it has to do with my scholarly work in medical education, for example, then being a member of the executive board of the Dutch medical Education Board, for example, is a reflection of that. Now, being an associate professor of medical education is a reflection of that. If you look at my leadership activities, for example, then being a founding member of Sanokondo or being a Canadian certified physician executive is a reflection of that. And if you look at my clinician role or as a doctor, then being an honorary fellow of the Royal College of Physician Surgeons of Canada is a reflection of that. Or being a clinician scientist at Ontario Tech University, for example, is also a reflection of that. So, I mean, this is probably a long answer to the question, but it gives you some background to the. The myriad of achievements, I would say, to put it, that I have put together over the years.
Michaella Masters
Looking at your research, obviously, was having quite a look at some of the papers, and I did notice that you cover a wide range of topics. What would you say your preferred areas of research are?
JO Busari
My preferred area of research at this present time and at this stage of my career is in the area of social justice and then social justice within the fields of those three areas. Social justice in clinical work as a doctor, as physician, social justice in medical education, which is why I’m going to AMEE, for example, and social justice in the area of leadership, for example, I am the commissioning editor at BMJ Leader. BMJ leader is one of the subsidiary journals of BMJ, and leader is all about leadership. And being a commissioning editor there gives me the opportunity to push for social justice when it comes to doing work in the area of leadership as it applies to healthcare, but also to leadership in general.
Michaella Masters
Brilliant. Yes, because I have seen, obviously, a little bit about what your talk is going to be about. AMEE, could you give any insights into that, obviously, without telling us your whole talk?
JO Busari
I’m going to have a conversation, a dialogue with the attendees there, and I know one of the things. So one of the things that in preparing for this work, is coming across the terms syllogism. I don’t know if you know if you’re familiar with that word, syllogism. Syllogism is a term that is used, and the best way I can do that is to use an example, because that is what we find ourselves, and it’s made up of three prepositions, a major, a minor, and one that ties things together. So a major proposition will be, for example, all black people are lazy, right? That’s a major thing. So all. And they say, Jamui is black. That’s a minor. And then I tie that together and say, because all black people are lazy and Jamie is black. So Jamieu is lazy. All right, that’s a negative. You can say all white people are rich. Michaela is white. So Michaela is rich. Well, I’m assuming you’re very rich, right? So, the point is, you know, my conversation is about syllogisms and how we take these assumptions and we make them reality. In our attempt to prove a point, in our attempt to win people over, in an attempt to gain whatever it is we want to gain in life, we use many of these sort of syllogisms. Some of these syllogisms make sense, some don’t. But the point is, it’s a pattern of conversations that we found in the interact, that we find in interactions we encounter ourselves in nowadays, which has contributed to a state of a lack of compassion for each other, lack of respect, contributed to the inequalities and the inequities we’re having to deal with on a day to day basis, and also emerging in some of the microaggressions and discriminations that we are seeing around us. So what I’m going to try to do is have a dialogue, not a discussion. Because if I’m having a discussion, I’m trying to prove a point. I don’t want to prove any point. I want us to engage in a conversation to understand these processes, just like I use syllogism to illustrate, you know, the challenges we’re having to deal with. I’m not proven a point I’m just using to illustrate to you. And then hopefully you understand that if you’re aware of how we engage in conversations with each other, we might think, well, if this is not yielding the results we want, maybe it should change the way we’re engaging in conversations. I hope what I’m saying makes sense to you, but that is what I’m going to achieve, trying to achieve that day. And I hope you’re there to attend, definitely.
Michaella Masters
What day is it actually that you are?
JO Busari
It’s the closing plenary. That’s the last day of the conference.
Michaella Masters
Yes, I’ll definitely be there. I think it sounds so interesting. And it’s very much on, obviously, people, as you’ve mentioned, judging people or grouping people together without, and you’ve mentioned, maybe subconsciously, maybe not meaning to. And I think it’s a conversation that’s necessary because it will make people reflect. And as you said, your aim is to have more of a conversation rather than a discussion or a presentation.
Then what have been probably the most significant milestones, would you say, in your medical career? I’m not sure if it is linked to your talk or to the subjects around the talk. What’s been the most significant milestone?
JO Busari
That’s a tough one. I’ve been privileged to have been recognized for so many things in my career. I have this most significant milestone. I think the most significant milestone for me.
JO Busari
Okay, well, so there is one and a half. Okay, I’ll say one and a half. Why? So after my keynote at AMEE, then that will probably be the most significant milestone for me in my career. But as of today, the most significant milestone in my career, among the many, is my honorary fellowship of the Royal College in Canada. Being awarded an honorary fellowship is like, that is as a scholar being recognized. I mean, I’m not canadian. I don’t practise in Canada. I’m international. Being honoured and given an award is so significant for me. But being able to speak on a podium like AMEE for an educationalist, that is because not all of us are going to get that opportunity to deliver a keynote at AMEE. Right. So for me, that’s one of those things that is very significant.
Michaella Masters
I think both of them are brilliant achievements. And I thought this might be challenging because when I was having a look at your different profiles and the different websites that I found, and I obviously found a couple of interviews that you’ve done, and you speak about so many, such a large and a wide range of organisations that you’ve been a part of. Just so many incredible achievements, and I think especially within medical education, I think it’s incredibly important.
JO Busari
Yeah. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that, you know. Thank you so much. I mean, that’s kind of you, of course.
Michaella Masters
And how would you say your field has changed since you first started practising?
JO Busari
It has changed a lot. We’re now into the era of AI, you know, so definitely.
Michaella Masters
Well, this is very much another question that I have. Like, with such a rapidly changing world, how do you see the roles of medical professionals changing and how do you see everything evolving, especially with AI?
JO Busari
So, you know, so I’ll tell you. So when I started medicine, my first degree in medicine I obtained in Nigeria, which is my roots. So when I was born and raised in England and my parents went back to Nigeria, I went with them. So my first degree, my MbchB, was in Nigeria and training there. Back then, you know, computers, forget it. You know, it was like, you had to. We will spend hours, so our lecturers will be dictating from their notes, and then we’ll be writing, writing it down, and then that’s what we’re going to read and use to study for exams. And, you know, it was at that level when I went, my first thesis that I wrote, first of all, I wrote it out, and then I went to this guy who had a typewriter, you know, those old things. Yes. And I spent hours dictating, you know, I’ll sit beside him and he’ll be writing out that I’ll typing it out for me. And it was, if he didn’t, he couldn’t read my handwriting. I had to spell it out for him. So that’s how I wrote my very first thesis. Okay, so that was back then. And I’m talking about this like in the, in the early mid eighties. Okay, then fast forward to where we are right now. I mean, I saw the advent of computers, you know, those first computers, and now I have a MacBook Pro 14 and all these m three and m ten and whatever they’re calling those things. And now we’re talking about AI medicine, and that’s a totally different level. And there has been a lot of change. Many have been very, very beneficial for us as practitioners, for us as learners, but also for us as recipients of care. But I’ve also seen the inherent dangers with the rapidity of all of the innovations. And it’s going at a pace that I am truly concerned about how to manage it. If you see the rate at which the technology is changing and the way it’s being used, but also being abused and misused. So there is concern, I wouldn’t say scary at this point in time, but there is a lot of concern.
Michaella Masters
I think it’s that way with a lot of industries at the moment, obviously, I think it’s definitely a lot more serious within healthcare because you’re talking about people’s lives and their fitness and their well being. It’s not just possibly a robot taking a job, it’s actually people’s well being. I guess this is very much related then, but maybe trying to look at it in a different way, not so much within AI. Are there any advancements in medicine and technology that you’re actually excited about and that you can see changing the practice of healthcare for the better in the future, or any tools in particular that you see help your students or help your colleagues or yourself, obviously, as well?
JO Busari
I think robotics has been one of the, you know, robotics in the area of minimal invasive procedures has been one of significant. It has reduced the, it has used the admission time, it has reduced rate of recovery, it has reduced the precision in terms of treatment. So those have really been, in terms of innovation, that’s really been fantastic. So I’m excited about that. I must say, artificial intelligence also has been really, really fantastic in the sense that artificial intelligence has been around for quite a while. But what we’re talking about now is this is like level 3.04.0 of artificial intelligence, because we’ve been using many of these automatic intelligence software programs in Metzen and at a very low level. I mean, just take, for example, the sensors that open the doors or the, you know, when, I mean, it’s a form of artificial intelligence, isn’t it? You know, picking up movement as we, as we, as we pass by. And so it, again, at the end of the day, it all boils down to the responsible application of all of these technologies, which is where I am. I am an innovator and have been involved in all sorts of innovative ideas. But in this case, I’m going to be, I’ll just be an early adopter and not an innovator. I’ll wait for them to figure it out first before I jump on the train. So I’m not against it, but I really want it to have established and then see what are the merits and what are the dangers before I jump on board.
Michaella Masters
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. You don’t really have room within healthcare. You don’t have room for trial and error. You have to, especially if it’s, as you mentioned, the robotics that help with procedures. You don’t have trial and error within those sorts of things. I think you kind of knocked it on the head when you mentioned that it’s how people use them. I think people hopefully use them responsibly so that they won’t be taken advantage of or used to cut corners in any way. Speaking of which, what do you think are the challenges for people getting into your field and what advice would you give them to overcome the challenges when starting out?
JO Busari
Yeah. So what are the challenges? You know, so you know, that is that, that is a question that you cannot give a singular answer to because again, as I’ve learned over the years, you have to take it into context. Like it’s different for me as a person of colour entering into a profession that has been designed on the premise of the white, male, blonde, blue eyed physician. Okay. As it will be difficult for a person who identifies as a white female to enter into the same profession, not to mention someone like myself who identifies as male, heterosexual, black of african ancestry enter into that same profession. Now. So when I answer that question, what are the challenges? I can only give you the challenges as the way I experienced it as someone of colour, which has actually been based on a position of disadvantageous position where the premise has always been that you’re not good enough, that you have to prove yourself and you’ve had to, you know, constantly show the world that you’re good enough to be part or to enter into the program. Now, one thing I can say, I think that, you know, for you to succeed in anything at all, you have to work hard for it. You have to put in the work. And what I do know is that you also have to be smart about it. You have to focus on the things that really make that difference, that contribute to it. You know, if hard work without consistency is not going to get you, is not going to get you the results, okay? So working hard, not consistent about it, is not going to get you to where you want to go at the same time. So you need both, you need to work hard, you have to be consistent, you have to believe in and you have to have a goal that you want to achieve that, I think for most people will help them make it in whatever profession, but especially in the field of medicine, you have to work hard, you have to be consistent at it, you know, you have to, you have to exercise that muscle and stay, and stay focused. If you do, then you actually get to the finish line and that’s about important. You have to have fun. You have to believe in what you do. No, honestly, if you’re doing something that doesn’t inspire you, it’s not going to work. So you can even have, we can work how you can be consistent, but if that, whatever it is you’re doing, if it doesn’t inspire you, you’re not going to be happy getting there because you just did it. But it’s not, it’s not going to be part of, part of who you are. I tell people you have to do something that if they wake you at 01:00 or 02:00 in the morning, you jump and say, hey, let’s go. What do I have to do next?
Michaella Masters
Yeah, that’s a brilliant example. Okay, so just sort of wrapping up. Our community is very much interested in, obviously, communication skills and soft skills training. How do you think that we could improve? How do you think healthcare and the practice of medicine can improve the way that these sorts of communication skills are taught to students? Or do you think there is any improvement that can be made?
JO Busari
So you might call me old school on this, but I think that, I mean, I believe, I know, I’ve done, I’ve written about simulation, I know about simulation, but there’s nothing irreplaceable than the human touch because at the end of the day, you know, human beings are one of the most complex creatures on earth, you know, and everyone, we all thrive on acknowledgement, we all thrive on kindness, we all thrive on compassion. You know, we all like to be listened to, we all want to be, to be treated with respect. So, you know, for me, communication has to go back to the core. And that will be one of my messages in my presentation. Our shared humanity. I think one of the issues we have lost is our humanity. We’ve moved away from being our brothers or our sister’s keeper to focusing on what’s in it for me, as long as it benefits me. I don’t care about the person we’ve moved on to. Oh, because it’s not affecting me, it’s not my problem, it’s the other person’s problem. But I don’t. I think we have to move away from seeing the other person’s problem, but make it our problem because that other person’s problem, sooner or later is going to be our problem. So when we talk about communication, I think we have to come from a humble humanistic paradigm and engaging conversations. When I’m having a conversation, make that person the centre of the universe. Give them all the attention to make them feel like the most important person at that moment.
Michaella Masters
That’s brilliant. What are your thoughts on the method of, as I mentioned, recording interactions for practical training and for reflective practice? Do you have any thoughts, I don’t know if you’ve ever actually done this before or.
JO Busari
So, could you take that question again, please? Sorry?
Michaella Masters
What are your thoughts on the method of recording interactions, whether that be obviously real patient consultations or simulated consultations for training. For practical training and reflective self reflection?
JO Busari
Yeah, so I support it. But there’s one. There is an assumption we make, which I. Which I think is the right word to put it. Okay. So there is an assumption that that method works for everybody. We incorrectly assume that simulations and recordings are the way forward when it comes to communication skills development, for example. And I think that we have to leave that margin of exception, that it probably might not work for everybody. We tend to assume that everybody is the same and that everybody has to go through these simulations or do these recordings. And if they do that, they do that well. And it’s a conversation I’m having in a different area in terms of how we did, how we determine professionalism, like who’s a professional and whose standards are we using to define professional professionalism? Just like education and communication. Whose standards are we using to teach communication? And who says that that way? I mean, there are communities where oral tradition and narrative storytelling are the ways of communication. And how do you learn that? There was a period in my life that I would sit on me and my cousins and my siblings, and then my grandma, who, she’ll be telling us a story and you’ll be listening, and she could tell those stories. Wow. And you say, wow, this is fantastic. But by listening and attending repeatedly, you learn how to communicate, how to tell stories. You understand what I’m saying? That’s a different way of learning. It’s not a simulation, it’s not recorded, but it’s also a way of. So the point I’m trying to make here is for us to take into account the cultural context of how we define or determine whatever educational method we want to apply. Simulations, recorded, recorded teachings are from the west, from the western approach, from medical education. We use that as the standard in most situations. But what we tend to forget is that that is not the only way to teach. And that is just one of the probably golden standards, quote unquote, that you could use to teach communication.
Michaella Masters
I think it goes back to your very, very important message and a very important point on not generalising people, that every individual learns differently. Some succeed in some environments while others don’t as well. They need some different methods, they need some different techniques. Yeah, exactly as you said, that does not generalise. And not to put everyone in the same box. It just requires some humility.
JO Busari
I would rather use a toolbox, the toolbox of the toolbox analogy that, you know. And there are various ways to teach communication, one of which is simulation recorded teachings. But there are also other ways. And not just assume, as we most of the time do in most curricular designs, that the best way to teach communication is this. I mean, there are different methods that we just acknowledge, and that is not the case. It can’t be the standard. And also, we have to be open to non western methods of teaching. Probably that’s out of the scope of this conversation, but it’s something that we shouldn’t undermine.
Michaella Masters
Definitely. Well, thank you so much. I think that’s a good finishing point, and I appreciate so much of your time, and I look forward to your talk on Wednesday, next Wednesday. I’ll definitely make sure that I’m there. And so thank you so much for your time. If you have any questions or anything that you’d like to say as well.
JO Busari
It’s been a very pleasant conversation with you, Michaelkla, and I’m looking forward to meeting you in person.
